Yes, true. Not just film music, but TV music and pop music as well. It's insane how little talent you need to make music these days. I get tired of hearing electronic drums in so many scores these days. It seems there is nothing original or different, just like everybody is sampling everyone else. Hardly any memorable themes in scores any more, nothing really creative or distinctive, always predictable. TV music these days could better be described as "aural wallpaper".

piano632, February 14, 2008; 12:47 PM

Agree wholeheartedly! And to carry it one step further: whose fault is it?

Is it because of the dearth of talent amongst the new crop of composers or is it because young listeners nowadays no longer have discerning taste in music and exhibit low standard by confusing "noise design" as masterfully crafted scores?

What do you think?

delerue, February 14, 2008; 4:08 PM

Its not because there are not good composers anymore.

Its because today its cheaper to make a lame soundtrack, paying a mediocre writter who compose a score in 2 weeks without even look the picture.
Honestly, not only soundtracks are cheap and lame today.Movies itlsef are cheap and lame.

And you have to thank hollywood.They already have the formula to make soundtracks, from past composers, so why to pay 1million to a composer, if they can a hire a moron who makes a predictable cliche of a soundtrack with 1/10 of that salary?


nicolas28, February 14, 2008; 5:25 PM

I quite like Brian Tyler and have some his earlier stuff. I do have to agree with you though, film music is quite crappy these days. The earlier thread for Transformers says it all really. The music was absolutely awful and yet people are crying out for a 2 disc release. In my opinion, the fault lies with the studios and the director. The studios will pay only a fraction of what would have been allowed for the music and the electronic elements contribute to this crappy music. You can buy computer programmes and become a composer yourself overnight, literally.Secondly, directors have influence and can use it, some choose not to. Ridley Scott for example swears by Zimmer and Zimmer is f.....g dire. Michael Bay and directors of his generation will use, I can't really call them composers, but people like that to score their films. Yet Peter Jackson, Steven Spielberg, to name a few, will place great emphasis on the music to their films. Still, there are good composers out there and I hope they get more scoring opportunities. I mean when did Debney last get a chance to score a film with the production value of Cutthroat Island. Answers on a postcard to...

TheSaint.786, February 14, 2008; 7:11 PM

You need to seek out the good on your own. When the sheisters with the mainstream media point people in whatever direction and tell you, that's good buy it, it's always because they have their 10% of whatever they are pointing you towards.

I like to suggest "Roswell Rudd's MaliCool". An independent musical project from a couple of years ago that's as good as it's ever been and better than it will ever be.

As for most current mainstream film music. Yeah it's junk lacking in substance. Cutting corners and playing the audience cheap. Why would those sheisters shell out the dough to commision a composer and orchestra to perform music of any substance when some meathead can create a cheap artificial sound with computer software while picking his nose?

Came across a low budget New York film a few months ago ( The Tollbooth), with an exceptional score by the great David Shire. A small independent film with a few musicians creating and performing exceptional sounds.

And by the way... What the hell did you expect from the latest "Rambo" film anyway? They've always been mindless trash except for "First Blood" which had about 30% credibility. The only thing decent about those films is the Goldsmith music, and now it doesn't even have that.



victoravalentine, February 14, 2008; 8:42 PM

I think you miss one fact about today's soundtrack world. We get SEVERAL times as many soundtracks released nowadays, so among the flood of new releases, it gets ever harder to find out the pearls.

handstand, February 14, 2008; 7:28 PM

Yeah but mainstream music in general is at a low point. The big Hollywod films almost always have bad scores these days.

The Hollywood soundstage scene is gone. Whenever an orchestral score is created for an American film it's almost always performed overseas. The musicians have been replaced by machines. it's pretty damn discouraging if a person gives it too much thought. Personally I just try to look past all of the horseshit and try to find the good. It's been that way with me for a long time so the concept is nothing new.




victoravalentine, February 14, 2008; 11:38 PM

Hello,

All of you make some very good observations on this sad subject and it can make a film score collector quite depressed. I find that I only purchase a handful or so of scores each year from the new movies being made. Thank goodness there are still some of the older composers still around who can still create something of quality. I'm not sure if the problem is only that most of the newer composers are lacking the talent or if most of the people that are responsable for the crap being produced in Hollywood won't give the composer more freedom to be more creative. It seems they just want the same formula driven garbage to be used over and over again.

Who are the best of the younger composers of today?


Best Regards,
David Phoenix, AZ.

deg63iami, February 15, 2008; 4:32 AM

Hi,
Haven't seen Rambo yet, but I did buy the soundtrack and must admit I am a little bit disappointed. I do think Brian Tyler is a good composer, but like any good composer he sometimes also composes mediocre stuff. I think it's very hard for a composers to compose good music for a crappy film. Goldsmith, for instance, could do it, but even he produced a few lame tunes.

I agree with TheSaint. The fault lies with the directors and studios/producers. It's not only about money, but also that a lot of directors and producers simply have no taste and/or knowledge about music. Just read a few (good) composer-interviews and you feel and understand their frustratation. It seems that their creativity isn't appreciated by a lot of people. They just have to compose what the director/studio wants and if they try to be original their score gets rejected (and replaced by the temp-track).

Luckily there still are directors and studios who do understand the value of a good score. Handstand is right. There are so many soundtracks released nowadays, you just have to look harder for the pearls. I don't mind, don't find it difficult even. There some very good review sites and we also have this site and forum :).

One last confession...I must admit that once in a while I like to listen to a 'godawfull' soundtrack like Transformers. It's like a snack: sometimes you have this craving for fastfood, you know it's bad and afterwards you feel dirty, but consuming it feels so good.


Never give up, never surrender!

erikvantholt, February 15, 2008; 4:39 AM

C'mon guys. Rambo 2008 is something else than Rambo 1989! If you really think the boring score of Rambo 3 is better than the one Tyler wrote, you are blinded by the name 'Goldsmith'. I'm glad the new film got a score that fitst a movie these days. Or do you guys want more of the same?? I love the score for Rambo. It's big, agressive and melodic. I always wondered why everybody praised Goldsmith's Rambo efforts, to me, there boring and much of the same, espessially Rambo 3!

dirk.j.jansen, February 15, 2008; 7:21 AM

You are probably right when you say Rambo 2008 needs a different score than the first Rambo-films. Times have changed, and so have movies, music, trends etc.
But this discussion is not about Rambo, or if Goldsmith's score is better than Tyler's version, but about the quality of the fillmmusic today. Rambo is only being used as an example. As I pointed out, I was a little bit disappointed in Tyler's soundtrack for Rambo, but I do like it, only expected something better or different.

To answer David's question, I my opinion Tyler is one of the better younger composers today (and I think Peter totally disagreed with me on this).

erikvantholt, February 15, 2008; 9:47 AM

Just one thing:

Don't badmouth Brian Tyler until you've seen and heard what he did for "Bubba Ho-Tep".
It's been a long while since I discovered a score that so perfectly fit a movie and even went beyond that. The music really is the 'glue' that balances out this wacky little gem of a film, by nailing the tone it needed. Give this movie a standard score and it can become laughable, but for all the wrong reasons.

Also, Brian did about 90% of the entire score himself. He composed, 'conducted' and performed almost everything by himself. Even for the ancient Egyptian 'voices' he used his own.

Now, if he gets the job scoring some "AvP - Requiem" thing, he's in another league. Most Hollywood directors/producers don't know anything about what a score can do besides accentuate what is already happening on screen. All they want is their movie to be a rollercoaster ride, and the music should keep the ride going at full speed.
So what you get is run-of-the-mill forgetable crap ("Transformers" being a good example).

But, as long as people will fill moviehouses and buy everything that Hollywood hypes, this will continue.

rinse_dream, February 15, 2008; 9:32 AM

I've always despised the Rambo films. Mindless entertainment for idiots. "First Blood" was okay for about the first 45 minutes. It's obvious Sylvester Stallone did the new film for money.

Goldsmith's music did wear thin into the 3rd film. "First Blood" is an exceptional score. I'm sure Goldsmith scored 2 and 3 for the dough and saw no reason to do anything other than rehash his same approach. As for this Brian Tyler guy creating and performing his own scores. Hell, if I had access to all the computer toys available to create artificial music I could do the same thing and probably better without even being a musician. It's all simulated. The computer effects on screen. The so-called music and the rest.

For electronic music to at least stand a chance of being good it needs to be electronic music. Not simulated orchestral sounds.

I'd rather listen to something good from the past than waste my time with most things current.



victoravalentine, February 15, 2008; 11:54 AM

I think its a natural thing, because people want fast paced entertaining scores and has less and less time these days. They don't have the patience to listen to long winding scores.

I am getting the same symptom, but for other music than scores. I didnt start listening to scores before 1992, so I still enjoy today's scores. For other kind of music, I long back to the 80s. It's all about what kind of people who is buying the music today. Probably mostly people aged 15-25 is the most profitable market.

Thing is, if you see what's on top of the scores chart on Amazon for example, you will see There Will Be Blood, Atonement, The Mission, Last of The Mohicans etc... "old people" scores.

I am really glad I can enjoy today's score. What a terrible world it would be without that pleasure. As for Rambo by Brian Tyler. I liked it, but it's nowhere near the score he made for Children of Dune (recently heard on the new Indiana Jones trailer)

contact, February 15, 2008; 12:24 PM

Gentlemen, I believe you are looking at film music all wrong. The film industry is still battling for its existence against their perceived competition. Just as years ago it tried to bolster movie going with Cinemascope, 3-D, Todd-AO, etc. while today it's the advances in special effects that seems to spark movie enthusiasts. Get the theatre money then out on DVD and get that money. Film music isn't as important to the filmmaker today. When it is we hear better scores. Our task as collectors is to separate the wheat from the chaff. Check your buying habits. Are you listening to the score music before you buy? Believe me the filmmakers are not going to produce the type of scores we judge to be good, great or otherwise. We must search them out. I don't blame those who release today's score albums- there's money to be made. We have to teach them that we won't buy just anything even if there's only to be 1000 copies. We know that's just a sales gimmick to start a buying frenzy. For all we know they probably pressed 10,000 copies and send each distributor 1000 copies to satisfy the marketing hype. To be more specific kwitcherbellyackin and be more objective when collecting.

hpmoorejr, February 15, 2008; 12:40 PM

Modern film music sucks.
This is the reason why I'm waiting for lots of old soundtracks (1980-1990) on cd.

Give me Black Cauldron Complete, Superman II and III complete, Young Sherlock Holmes Complete, Conan complete, Karate Warrior complete, Transformers and He-Man (cartoon tv series) original scores, Teen Wolf complete score, and I will die happy.


tyuan74, February 15, 2008; 12:47 PM

Not all filmmusic today sucks. You just don't like it. Well that's okay, but that doesn't mean it sucks in general.

Reading some of these posts is like listening to my grandfather nagging about how everything was better in the past. It wasn't, different maybe, but not better.

Because more movies are being made, more music is composed and released. And because there's so much being made, there is also a lot of crap. But I refuse to believe that everything that was composed in the past is good and everything composed today is bad. Also in the old-days they made crappy music and even today good music is being composed. Maybe you have to look harder, but it's out there.

So stop whining and listen to music.

erikvantholt, February 15, 2008; 2:26 PM

Hi,

It seems that film music in the present has always been less than what it was perceived as in the past. Allow me to quote from an Enoch Light album of film themes issued in the mid-sixties.

"In the past few years the entire concept of movie music has gone through a fascinating change. There was a time when one movie score could hardly be distinguished from another so far as musical content was concerned. The music might be dramatic or richly orchestrated but much of it was cut from the same mold and blended into the same sound. It could be identified, en masse, as "movie music"". (no author cited)

So what else is new? I can tell you this, producers are less and less interested in a film score as they are now more interested in the Sound Design of their film. That is the new catch phrase. Remember it. It is the real cause of our current state of film music.

At the same time this is a great time to be a soundtrack collector. Every month from half-dozen indie labels we get great scores from great composers who worked in an industry that once understood how a score was meant to be wedded to a film.

So my opinion in all of this is that nothing much has really changed. I'm just glad that I grew up in a time when there was the new guard, like Goldsmith, Jarre, Mancini and even Williams (to a certain extent), who were pushing out the old guard, like Rozsa, Waxman, Newman, et. al.

Geniuses all!

weavercp, February 15, 2008; 3:37 PM

I'd say this Brian Tyler character wouldn't know what to do in front of a 100 piece orchestra and would probably hurt himself trying. If not for composers of the past who paved the way for most everything that's done today many of the people attempting to score films wouldn't know where to turn when doing what many of them do so poorly.

I began listening to film music at the age of 18 and even then realized that composers such as Erich Korngold, Franz Waxman, Max Steiner, Miklos Rozsa were far above most all the others. And all of those guys were generations before me. This isn't grandpa speaking. This is a person with common sense who knows when someone is trying to play him cheap.

Orchestral music is being replaced with simulated orchestral sound. I can't stand the sound of it and refuse to listen to it. I love electronic music but not electronic orchestra sounds.

It takes some talent to pull 100 plus people playing individual instruments together perfectly. Most of the hacks toying around today couldn't do it in a million years.

Big studios cut corners and play the audience cheap with most of their nonsense. Every now and then a decent score might come around. James Newton Howard does a pretty good job with the crappy films he scores.

I'll take an Alex North score over what most of the contemporary snotheads do any day of the week.

George Duning, Henry Mancini, Elmer Bernstein and Jerry Goldsmith with be the ones remembered a hundred years from now (Unless the human race kills itself off for good). Brian Tyler will be remembered as an example of the slow and sure deterioration that took place.

victoravalentine, February 15, 2008; 5:04 PM

Clearly you don't like Brian Tyler's music, fine, everybody has their preferences, but you are wrong when you say he can't handle a big orchestra. He has worked several times (succesfully in my humble opinion) with big orchestras (like LSO) and uses electronics as electronics and does not (try to) replace an orchestra with electronics.
Tyler is a percussionist and openly admits his prefenrence for percussion driven music. That doesn't make him a cheap cheat. You simply don't like his style. That's all. And if he's remembered a hundred years from now, only time will tell. Tyler is young, just starting, can grow (will grow) so give him some slack.

But can we get beyond Tyler please when discussing modern film music? Workingwithknives mentions James Newton Howard, but there are other (young(er) composers who also compose great music nowadays: Howard Shore, Christopher Young, David Newman, Thomas Newman, Alexandre Desplat, Debbie Wiseman, Roque Banos, to name a few. And John Williams en Ennio Morricone are still alive and kicking.

I agree that a lot of the big hollywood films have crappy soundtracks, that's a pitty, but like I said before you don't have to search very long to find some very good soundtracks. And hollywood does produce something worth watching (and listening to) once in a while. I see no reason why that would change. I guess I'm not as pessimistic as others. And hollywood is not all there is...there are a lot of good movies (and soundtracks) being made in other countries.

erikvantholt, February 15, 2008; 6:44 PM

Yep, Peter, it sure does....

My personal musical "Zeus", John Barry, has virtually retired from film scoring, Goldsmith, Poledouris, Kamen are gone, John Williams might do a a single score a year....

Lukas Kendall of FSM called it correctly in the pages of his magazine way back, that the pleasures of film music were going to be found almost exclusively in the past.....how right he was.

Fortunately, in that regard, discs that I thought we'd never see in my lifetime have gotten CD releases... Pete Rugolo's music for the 60's TV classic "The Fugitive" anyone? Unbelievable! Mark Isham's long overdue score for "Point Break"! Now, if only someone would release his intense score for "The Getaway"...

Once Barry's "The Deep" and Riz Ortolani's "The 7th Dawn" get legit CD releases, I think that'll be it for my film music library.

Regards,
James-Toronto
www.furisdead.com



johnbarryisgod, February 15, 2008; 9:24 PM

Have appreciated the work of Pete Rugolo for a long time. I have a copy of "The Fugitive" disc on Silva myself. Purchased "This World Then The Fireworks" about a year ago. A special treat to hear the music of big band legend and Stan Kenton arranger in a more or less recent film. Love his old Mercury label LP's.

Hey JBIG (for short). Tried to look at the website your post linked to about fur production. Couldn't look for long. As a 31 year vegetarian I find it fucking painful and aggravating to so much as glance at such things.

Have you ever listened to the score from "The Animals Film" by Robert Wyatt? I've had a copy of that for years yet have only been able to listen to it once even though I like it for the simple reason that such a subject matter aggravates me so much.

Read somewhere that John Barry is in poor health and that being the reason he no longer scores films.

As for the gems of film music for the most part being from the past. I've long preferred music and films of the past over most of the recent stuff. Very few exceptions to that rule.


victoravalentine, February 16, 2008; 12:42 AM

Well well well well well. WOW! Never seen comments like this. No sir.

I think that every single one of you is missing the point. Now, I'm a teen, but I have a feeling I've read a few more composing books to know this business, if you know what I'm saying.

You all must take into mind that the score is NEVER put into a film WITHOUT THE DIRECTOR! Remember, the DIRECTOR makes the final decisions here. The director can tell the composer (in this case, Brian Tyler) whatever HE wants for the score to be, along with the producer. Remember, every cue of music must be approved by the director. I repeat, it MUST BE APPROVED BY THE DIRECTOR.

So when the most arrogant comment as "Film music today sucks" comes to the board, I cannot help but ask, "Does this person actually know and comprehend what he's saying? Does this person understand the composer's job?" The composer's choice of scoring may not be exactly what he wanted. The director or producer might have led him to do something he didn't agree with. It's sad, but true. The sound editors can totally screw with the score in whatever way the director or producer feels the music should be presented. So in conclusion to this thought, the composer does not really have the final say msot of the time. Unless you're working with a director who understands the art of music and is willing to listen to what the composer has to say, about 90% of film music today is decided on ultimately by, no, not the composer, but the director and producers.

People please. Look at the big picture, here. If you say the music for a film is awful (which, by the way, taken into the literal sense would mean "full of awe" which is a positive term), why on earth would you assume this position for every other score of today? Surely there's at least one of you who enjoys something like King Kong (Howard; 2005), The Patriot (Williams; 2000), The Time Machine (Badelt; 2002), or even Titanic (Horner; 1997)? I'm sure most of the people commenting here are at least 30 years of age and are attached to old 80s or soaring violins of the 30s-50s. Personally, I think you are all judging the composer by opinion and not by real knowledge.

Sure many of you may have thousands of soundtracks. Some of you have not listened to the majority while others might have listened to them all. Personally, I haven't thousands of soundtracks. In fact, I have 43. I've listened to every single one and many of them on a daily basis. I buy soundtracks IF I ENJOY THE MUSIC. Some of you, however, are like squirrels, stocking and saving and usually forgetting a few nuts you've hidden in the ground or tree.

I have neither seen Rambo, nor have I listened to Tyler's score. I have only listened to one soundtrack by Tyler which happens to be the "Children of Dune" series with 36 tracks. Brilliant, I thought. Whether or not Rambo was a good score it is a matter of opinion of the buyer who decides if the score is enjoyable. Technically, no score is a bad score. There's always someone who will enjoy it.

Whoever started this thread seriously does not have a knowledge of the behind the scenes process, to which I assume the same for the people who actually responded to this ridiculous topic. I read someone hated Transformers. Really? Well, I enjoyed the soundtrack and I own it as well. Am I stupid? Really. If you dig up the facts, the Transformers score was never to be released, but a change of plans occurred when fans wrote to the producers and composer to release his score. I think at least 1,000,000 people have to make an impact like that for the composer and producers to actually CONSIDER to change their minds about marketing a product like a soundtrack. So if someone here dislikes the score, there are millions who would disagree with you, sir.

Personally, I think this thread thoroughly depicts the ignorance of those here who collect soundtracks of what actually goes on behind the scenes. I thought the soundtrack collector was supposed to collect for enjoyment, but I guess there are some squirrels around...

--Truman

raalerasoul, February 23, 2008; 12:22 PM

To WWK...

Further to Pete Rugolo... interviewed for the 1993 book, "The Fugitive Recaptured", Rugolo recalled that Warner Brothers requested, and then cancelled, a "Fugitive" soundtrack album. Rugolo still has all those newly created arrangements in his basement! I'll bet you knew that already.

I heard one of his Mercury double-header reissue CDs a few years back...not "The Fugitive" to be sure, (of course) but enjoyable all the same.

Thanks for clicking on the link on my previous post, www.furisdead.com - your lifetime as a vegetarian says volumes about your fine character. Thank you. May your anger prompt you to action, amigo. The helpless sure could use you. (This applies to anyone, and everyone reading this, please!)

I do know of "The Animals Film", however I've not yet seen it. I do know it has been recently released in a 25th anniversary edition DVD with extras.

There is a transformational film that is getting worldwide attention, and snapping people out of the thoughtless acceptance of animal "useage".. it's called "Earthlings", there's more info here - www.ISawEarthlings.com -I do hope you'll visit it, and see it....

Thanks for your feedback WWK!

Regards,
James-Toronto
www.furisdead.com


johnbarryisgod, February 25, 2008; 2:42 PM

Agreed. And I'm a film composer... Just watched The Expendables, and Bryan Tyler's score
was horrible.... What happened to even the 20th century greatness of Arvo Part, the
Kronos Quartet, or even Phillip Glass?

All of them took creative risks to push the envelope.. Look, I could be a truly horrible
composer, but i absolutely refuse to accept what our fortunate 'betters' are putting out
right now. It's just uninspiring... Technology may be film / classical music's downfall,, if not
treated in the ssme respect it once was...



Joel Goffin

Jcgoffin, September 3, 2011; 1:24 AM